There are currently 106 sophomores with a GPA lower than 2.1 out of a class of 382.
The other classes are not much better.
So when do we, as parents, get mad, and start to hold the school board, the school district, and the administration accountable to US?
Why are we arguing about $150,000 for special needs classrooms, when there are such bigger fish to fry?
When are we going to demand, a more challenging curriculum, higher expectations, and better teacher and student performance?
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52 comments:
With all due respect, what about holding the students responsible to some degree? Or the parents. If my son had ever come home with grades that low there would have been work done at home to fix that. Teachers can't do it all if students and parents don't help.
But then again I valued my son enough to send him to private schools.
Here is the problem, what if you can not afford to send your child to private schools, and you dont find out about your childs bad grades until the report card comes out, because the school doesn't bother to tell you that your child has not been paying attention in class, or doing all of her homework.
All of the homework, tests, and quizzes that you have seen throughout the quarter have been A's and B's,so that when the report card comes out it is a total shock.
At that point the extra work that you do with your child at home may be great, but it doesn't erase the bad report card.
Not to mention that when your child starts looking at colleges, and tkaing college level courses, you find out that the AP courses your child took at Timberlane were academically about as challenging as normal courses at Phillips Exeter, or many other private schools.
Why can't we expect excellence from Timberlane?
At almost $13,000/kid we are certainly paying for excellence!
For one, you as a parent should be have an open rapport with your child and this includes school. The child should also have an open rapport with the parent. Without this, both will suffer.
As for the lack of funding, it is why a free market education system works. Rather than have it managed by the town government, it is run privately. And rather than pay taxes to a failing school system, you hard earned dollar is used as a tuition credit to a school of your choice.
If only enough people were to wake up and reailize that the Government does not belong in our chidrens education process.
I whole heartedly agree that the free market education system works for the people and most importantly for, the children that are being lost in the shuffle
of bureaucracy. We the people are the only ones that can change this system. I am sad to say that this will never happen unless we use the power that we already have to make things change. We can talk about this forever and ever but nothing will change unless you stand up and do something about it.
Just as an example, I give you our own BOS. Think about it.
I've heard that the autistic classroom is more like a studio apartment -- showers, full kitchen. What I don't understand is why aren't parents teaching their children life skills? Why is it the district's responsibility and when these students go to the high school, are we to believe they will be creating a studio apartment there as well because if not, what's the use of teaching 6th grade students how to do laundry -- yes there will be a washer and dryer too! Why isn't the district working with them on academics? Like Math..
As for holding the SB, Superintendent and Administrators accountable -- good luck! It's definitely the "good old boy network" or hasn't anyone noticed but most of the "new" administration is from Nashua? Even the new AD at the high school is from Nashua.....and he apparently can't do the job because now we're paying the former AD almost $30,000 a year to help him???? Maybe we'll be known as a sub-campus of Nashua soon!
I was certainly surprised after the past voting on the warrant articles to see that most of the towns voted for the school budget -- even after learning that they wrapped the $500,000 current high school renovation (science lab) into the budget and not as a separate warrant article -- why aren't we allowed to vote on such huge money issues? I'm tired of watching the SB and hearing comments as "we know best and what's needed". I especially took offense to the statement made about when questioned why the autistic apartment was a separate warrant article and not wrapped into the budget, the SB member replied that this was done because it was their belief the public wouldn't say "no" to disabled students -- inferring that we might say "no" to a science lab and in order to get the lab this year, they had no choice but to put it in the budget's total. The SB may "think" they know best but I do not appreciate their spending our money any way they see fit!
I would like to see all the towns unite for a better accountability and then maybe, just maybe, becoming fiscally responsible towards education and not sports and music -- then we'll see some good results in the testing scores and the third of the sophmore class with the low GPA might improve.
A parent's influence is actually bigger than the school's, but it's just too easy to blame the school.
Like Mark, most parents just want to scapegoat the school; but consider what teachers face.
Parents that allow their children not to do their homework; parents that allow their children to play violent videogames for 4-8 hours at a time; parents that allow their kids to work 20-40 hours a week and sleep through class; parents that allow their children to stay out all hours of the night on school nights; parents that don't check to make sure their kids do their homework.
Yes, something certainly has changed in education in the last 20 years, but it's not teachers or the education system. It's the lack of respect that students bring to school, and the lack of support the schools get from the parents. When a kid misbehaves these days, guess who defends them? The parents! Great role models, the kid acts like a punk but the parent bails them out.
But people like Mark need a scapegoat; notice that he blamed the school for not telling him if a student is failing! Guess what any parent can do; call in and ask about your child's performance. Most teachers would love to have an interested parent inquire as to the work their child is doing.
But's it's much easier to blame the school and teachers, because parents that don't teach their children responsibility for their own actions don't take responsibility themselves....
It doesn't matter whether you can afford to send you kid to a private school, what matters is that we are paying good money for lousy results. It's unacceptable to have to pay for these schools and still need to go elsewhere to get a good education.
Competition is the best motivator. If the state allowed a rebate to take your kid out of the public school system, like they've considered for over 20 years, we would not have this mess today. Timberlane would have to put out to survive.
To anon @ 11:56
Obviously you have not read many of my posts on this subject;
I disagree with you it is much too easy to scapegoat the parents!
My wife and I are THE proactive parents. EVERY quarter I am in there meeting with my kids teachers and guidance counselors. I ask questions, I give them my card with all my numbers, and email. I beg to be notified of my child acts out, or fails to do work. I have yet to receive a single phone call or email.
I log onto Powerschool every day to see what homework is upcoming, and what they are working on. I have chewed out my kid based on info on powerschool, only to find out that it was never updated. I have been told that alot of the teachers simply do not have the time to update powerschool on a daily or weekly basis, Funny, Pinkerton does, there it is REQUIRED of the teachers! There teachers are REQUIRED to communicate with parents! At Timberlane parents are lucky if they can get a teacher to call them back or return an email, at least that has been my experience.
I check my kids agenda, and folders every day, and there are days when she doesn't have ANY homework because they watched Legally Blonde 2 in Government to learn how a bill becomes a law! They watched Fun with Dick and Jane in Economics! And God forbid, we talk about the last week of the year, or the day before a vacation, when they do nothing at all.
What you fail to recognize is that I am paying Timberlane almost $13,000/yr. to educate my child, If I have to do that myself, why am I paying the school district?
My daughter had an Economic's teacher that showed the movie Fever Pitch. Can someone explain to me in what way is this movie related to Economics? By the way, this teacher NEVER returned emails, phone message, or attended any open house.
If teaching is so easy folks, they've made it very easy for professionals to teach in public school now; why don't you show how easy it is and put your money where your mouths are and go teach for a few years?
Oh, that's right. You're too greedy, or scared, to teach for a living. Funny how hypocritical some people area. Stop complaining and do something about it!
Mark, you've listened to a few too many right wing radio shows. Isn't NH in the top states for SAT scores? Who's responsible for that? Oh, that's right, we don't want to bring that up because we might have to give some credit to the schools, and we only want to feature evidence here that supports the fact that teachers are just slugs living off the public dole.
IF you've got half the guts, skills, and dedication, stop all your whining and become a teacher! Otherwise, "ssshhhh....".
To the anon, Teacher???, at 4:19,
I am not denigrting teachers in general, I am speaking of the measurable decline in academic achievement at Timberlane! If you deny that there is a decline, state your facts. If you believe the decine exists, quit trying to deflect the point, and address it.
Either way, Timberlane is not the school it was 20 years ago, and the slope of decline is consistent with the increase in funding.
I would appreciate someone in authority explaining why it cost Timberlane so much more than it cost other schools in the area, to achieve less.
If that's your point, then stop irresponsibly slamming teachers, or show you have the guts to teach. Look at your own posts, your argument was not limited to what you just stated. Backing off what you said, and trying to restate your argument in new terms, is a sign you know were wrong...
Ok, Let me make my position perfectly clear.
I am ot backing off anyhting I have said, and I do not believe I am wrong, as facts prove that Timberlane is declining academically over the years, while costs keep escalating.
My position is that the school board is useless. They act as little more than bobbleheads for whatever the superintendent, who is their employee by the way, says.
The SAU, is apparently more interested in engaging in CYA than quality education.
The School Admin in the high school doesn't know how to achieve the results that other schools get, and if they did, they could execute, because they are hampered by a weak curriculum, and a push them through mentality handed down from the SAU.
The middle school is the worst school in the district! They have a principal whose stated belief is that a child with straight "F"'s should be promoted to the high school where that child will "catch it up"!
As for the comments about having the guts to teach, I would love to teach American History at the high school level, but as my degree was obtained outside the country and is not accredited here, It is impossible for me to become certified without repeating college, I know I have checked. I'll tell you, $33.89 an hour, for doing something I enjoy sounds great, and the benefits are incredible.
The fact of the matter is people are BEING FORCED to pay you for a job you are largely not accomplishing, and yet you criticize us for demanding value for our money. This makes you part of the problem rather than the solution.
By the way, did you see the first sentence in the article;
30% of the sophomore class has a GPA that wont get them into NECC!
It really bothers me when people talk about the 'guts, skills, and dedication' it takes to be a teacher or public servant. How much guts does it take to change the channels for kids six hours a day? How much skill does it take to regurgitate the same curriculum year after year? How much dedication are we seeing when teachers leave the classroom during a contract dispute?
Not much, frankly, and to declare oneself a hero at a time when we are surrounded by heroes is pathetic.
It's a job. You go to school for a couple years and apply for one of the three million or so positions. You get summers off plus vacations plus personal, development, and sick time. You work inside in the winter and have summers off. Once you get tenure, you have a job for life -- unless you do something so antisocial or criminal that it can't be kept quiet. Then you retire. Tough life.
My heroes carry guns and wear flak jackets. They stay up late so I can sleep at night. And they don't bitch about not having enough armor on their humvees or too little in their checking accounts.
I happened to attend memorial services in two towns in the district this year and someone mentioned to me that there were few teachers or public employees on hand. My comment, "Why should they honor these people, they think they are the heroes of our society."
Get over yourself anon, Teacher.
Mark,
Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't NECC have an open admissions policy? Can you please explain your statistic?
Yes, NECC has an open admissions policy, the statement about the poor GPA was not about NECC, that was justified hyperbole to make a point.
When one third of a class has below a 2.1 GPA, dont you think there is a problem? expecially when you have been paying someone $59,000,000.00 per year to fix that?
MAcciard said...
Yes, NECC has an open admissions policy, the statement about the poor GPA was not about NECC, that was justified hyperbole to make a point.
Hmmm...interesting way to make a point. I wonder how many others may have accepted your hyperbole as fact? Do you have other justfied hyperboles peppered in throughout this post as well?
I would also like to point out that in an earlier post, you state you are not denigrating teachers, yet your following manifesto posting ends with this gem:"The fact of the matter is people are BEING FORCED to pay you for a job you are largely not accomplishing, and yet you criticize us for demanding value for our money. This makes you part of the problem rather than the solution." It sounds to me like your anger certainly is directed at the teachers. Or, at least, those who challenge you on this blog.
I think this type of "if your not part of the solution, your part of the problem" attitude is just crap and weakens the valid points you raise about our ROI for our children's education.
I found a website that gives school district finance ratings for potential home buyers. Interestingly, Timberlane Regional is ranked 2.1 out of a possible 5, with 5 being best.
From this website*:
TIMBERLANE REGIONAL SCHOOL DISTRICT is in the 21.7% percentile rank in the state for Spending Per Pupil. It is in the 54% percentile rank nationally. Higher numbers are better. In this case, 21.7% of cities in New Hampshire spend the same or less than TIMBERLANE REGIONAL SCHOOL DISTRICT. Said another way, 78.3% of schools in New Hampshire spend more than TIMBERLANE REGIONAL SCHOOL DISTRICT.
I've listed the website below as a reference and I would like to qualify the above quote by saying I could not find any data indicating what year this was report was issued. However, if this data is current, perhaps one should ask; are we investing too little in our children's education?
And as for Anon, August 9, 2008 2:15 PM rantings. Please leave your politics out of this. Up until your pathetic post, no one even brought up "heroes." Please do us all a favor and turn off your conservative radio and tv talk shows for a week and see if it's possible to write down a thought that doesn't regurgitate the brand of hate you so like listen to.
*http://www.homesurfer.com/schoolreports/view/schoolreports.cfm?state=NH&refcity=ATKINSON
please tell me what difference it makes if timberlane spend more or less than the average public school district in the state?
Do you mean that if they spend less we shouldnt criticize their lack of achievement?
Do you not understand that most of my diatribe has been directed at the school board and administration, or did you miss that entire post?
Again what I want is accountability and academic achievement. Dontt tell me why you cant do your job just do it.
MAcciard said...
Do you not understand that most of my diatribe has been directed at the school board and administration, or did you miss that entire post?
Yet, you write:
I ask questions, I give them my card with all my numbers, and email. I beg to be notified of my child acts out, or fails to do work. I have yet to receive a single phone call or email.
and:
At Timberlane parents are lucky if they can get a teacher to call them back or return an email, at least that has been my experience.
and:
The fact of the matter is people are BEING FORCED to pay you for a job you are largely not accomplishing, and yet you criticize us for demanding value for our money. This makes you part of the problem rather than the solution.
While I understand you also question the Superintendent and School Board, I'm not so sure your anger is directed solely at these offices. Or are the above comments justified hyperbole as well?
Do you mean that if they spend less we shouldnt criticize their lack of achievement?
No, but don't you think that may explain some of the issue? If the teachers aren't provided with the tools they need to do their job properly -- because of the "I'm voting NO on everything mentality" you are attempting to propagate here -- can you not see the chicken and the egg issue you are creating?
You get what you pay for. From what I see, we may possibly invest less in our kids' education than ~75% of the rest of the state. And then we are "outraged" when their performance is suboptimal.
If you think you can improve things, try to get on the school board. I'll vote for you!
Mark is resistant to facts. And his "justified hyperbole" (otherwise known as fabricating an otherwise exact statistic to support a poor argument), well, the term for justified hyperbole used to be "lie". Let's look at the facts recently presented;
> Timberland spends less than 79% than other NH schools on its students, meaning that we're more thrifty with our tax dollars than 4 out of 5 towns. But we have ranting nutjobs inventing facts to make it sound like we spend too much on our schools. Use the real facts and decide this on your own.
Among states that have over 60% participation rates on taking the SAT, NH LEADS THE NATION in SAT scores. Considering this, go back and look how our own local cranks treat the teachers that help to get these results. If you were a teacher, imagine for a moment doing your best but reading these local cranks that can't discriminate between the truth and a lie, and slam teachers in some pathetic effort to feel better about themselves. Sad.
Again, to the ranting cranks that like slamming teachers, have the guts to go try it. And to Mark's excuse that his degree isn't fully valid here, neither are many teacher's Mark; No Child Left Behind forced many teachers to go back to school for extra courses or to get a master's degree just to do their job, so start taking more night classes just like many teachers are and get in the classroom.
And again, please don't fabricate your facts.
To Anon, August 8 4:19 pm
Quote: “If teaching is so easy folks, they've made it very easy for professionals to teach in public school now; why don't you show how easy it is and put your money where your mouths are and go teach for a few years?......IF you've got half the guts, skills, and dedication, stop all your whining and become a teacher! Otherwise, "ssshhhh....".”
Can I assume that you have no level of expectation from any other professions unless you personally walked a mile in their shoes? Physcians, Eye Doctors, Nurses, Electricians, Plumbers, Car mechanics, Salesmen, Dentists. Are you to tell me that you don't expect a certain level of service from this list of other professions? If so, you've volunteered in all of these areas? All the professions I've listed require some sort of training and/or college degree. Explain why I shouldn't expect teachers to do their job?
Let's be clear. No one said that being a teacher is easy. Also, no one is saying the all problems in Timberlane revolve around the teachers. Isn't it the responsibility of the person who the teachers report to, the real issue? If a particular teacher is only showing TV shows and/or movies weekly or every other week (taking 4 class time to view a whole movie), shouldn't school administration correct that problem? According to the poll “At your work, what would happen to an employee...” a large majority thought the supervisor should be fired 78% than the worker 40%. Should school administration be treated different than administration from a commercial business?
Considering this, go back and look how our own local cranks treat the teachers that help to get these results. If you were a teacher, imagine for a moment doing your best but reading these local cranks that can't discriminate between the truth and a lie, and slam teachers in some pathetic effort to feel better about themselves. Sad.
These 'local cranks' are your employers and your customers. Considering the quality of the product you produce, the way you treat your customers, and the way you speak about your employer, you are lucky to have a job at all. I guess that's what unions are for...
Ok, For someone who is purported to be there company's boy wonder, you sure have trouble following a simple statement.
I stated;
"30% of the sophomore class has a GPA that wont get them into NECC!"
That 30% of the sophomore class has a GPA of 2.1 or less is a documentable fact.
The only hyperbole engaged in, was the statement that it would not get those children into NECC.
I chose NECC over the 10,000 or so better colleges that their GPA would exclude them from to hammer home the point that this is not acceptable. I could have said Keene State, or Plymouth, or SNHU, or any others. The point was not whether or not NECC has open admissions, the point was the 2.1GPA!!!
Rather than confront this dismal statistic, you choose to call me a liar, claiming that I fabricate facts. That is intellectually dishonest at best.
I do not lie! I leave that to others in town to do.
I understand now, I am so sorry.
The position of the Anonymous teacher, is that anyone who criticizes the teachers, the school administration and the school board, is the one who is wrong. I get it now, We lowly parents, have no business telling the "educators", what we expect. I apologize.
This mentality is EXACTLY why vouchers are in such demand!
Competition would end this idiotic argument.
The essential question still remain unanswered;
Why can't timberlane achieve the same level of academic success, that other local schools do for 70% of the price?
Anon,
Until you can answer that question all of your subterfuge is pointless.
Mark,
I've looked high and low on the Timberlane HS website as well as the State of NH Dept. of Education website. Can you please tell us where your TRHS sophomore class GPA can be found?
I know of this statistic because I have seen the transcript of a student who will no longer be going to Timberlane, And their GPA is 2.1
And their class rank is 272 out of 382
That means there are 110 kids with 2.1 or lower, but it is ok, because no one seems to mind.
Least of all the administration and the school board.
MAcciard said...
I know of this statistic because I have seen the transcript of a student who will no longer be going to Timberlane, And their GPA is 2.1
I see. So if I understand correctly, your "documentable" fact is a student's report card you saw? OK....
So a few things here. 1. A 2.1 GPA is roughly the equivalent of a C grade. Average. This means that 2/3 of the sophomore class are performing at a higher level (C+ - A+) than your single data point metric. By the way, the 2.1 GPA is probably good enough for this student to get into UNH.
You state earlier that we are spending $13K per student. Yet page 30 of the 2007 TRSD Annual Report* lists our cost per high school student at $9,190.42. This is almost FOUR THOUSAND DOLLARS lower than your other "documenatble(?)" fact. Can you please explain where you are coming up with $13K/student?
Mark, in previous posts, I've seen you defend Lewis Builders, as well as the reprehensible comments made by Fishgutz. On this post, you've admitted to "justifiable hyperbole," and you use a kid's report card as documentable data. In the old AR blog, you admitted to overstating the tax impact the 55+ condos Lewis Builders are shoving down our throats and all too quickly adjusted the numbers you were posting when someone called you on it.
In short, you ARE a crank with an obvious ax to grind with Timberlane. You twist figures to work to your advantage and support your agenda against our school system. Is Timberlane Regional perfect? Far from it! But as previously stated, I feel your irresponsible comments do more harm than good to remedy the situation.
*http://www.timberlane.net/DOCS/TRSD-AnnualReport07.pdf
"Local cranks" refers to people that denigrate all teachers for the actions of a small minority; people who use the term "teachers" as if it's a negative term instead of a group of people that care enough about kids to actually spend the whole day with them, instead of ranting uselessly on a bulletin board.
You can easily spot people that don't think for themselves; they farm their thinking out to right wing-nut radio shows. One of the characteristics is people who mindlessly slam teachers. Can you find an offender or two here? I bet that you can!
MAcciard said...
1.) This is not a "kids report card" but a transcript listing GPA and class rank. Two significant data points.
2.) The district has a $59,464,070.00 budget for 4,653 kids in the district!
DO THE MATH!!!
That is $12,780/ kid!!! And with all that money their test scores keep falling, the academic performance is abyssmal, only 53% of high schoolers can pass the math basic skills test.
3.) for the third time the "justified hyperbole" was in comparing the GPA to getting into NECC, rather than a school with entrance standards.
4.) once again you shoot the messenger rather than discuss the facts.
And you choose to cast your aspersions anonymously, oh well, why is it that some consider it a sin to expect results from those we pay so highly to achieve them?
Why is criticizing the abyssmal academic performance at my alma mater, grounds for calling me a crank?
The GPA, Class rank, budget numbers, and student population figures I stated are accurate.
Does anyone know what it takes to make honor roll at TRHS?
a 2.8 GPA! This is what? a "C+". This number is form the handout given by principal Woodward at the parent meeting last year.
At Timberlane a "C+" is now considered "honor roll"?
But keep apologizing for the district, and attcking the messenger, while our school districts achievement continues to slide.
It is this complacency that has allowed this situation to get to where it is now.
The question is;
When, for $8,800.00 we can send our children to Pinkerton Academy on a tuition basis, When for roughly $8,000 we can send our kids to Central Catholic, when for $3,700 we can send them to St. Joes,
All of which will provide a superior academic preparation for career or college than Timberlane provides for $12,781.00.....
Don't we, as parents, have a right to demand better? Don't we have a right to criticize? Don't we have a right to ask, why it takes Timberlane 50% more money to do a worse job?
Well, I'll say it out loud -- the good teacher is the exception (not the rule) at timberlane.
When I walk the halls of the schools, I see disinterested zombies going through the motions. When I ask them about the quality of their education and the performance of the kids, I get an unqualified, "Whatever," or a shrugged, "it's not my fault."
anon, teacher isn't defending the quality of the school system -- just attacking people who want more.
I won't vote for the next contract warrant. I hope the 'teachers' walk. I bet we could do better bringing in parents to teach our kids.
To Anon 6:28 PM,
FYI, a 2.1 GPA will NOT get you into UNH! Even though this article is over a year old, it still applies. Check out http://www.seacoastonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070503/NEWS/705030425/-1/NEWS09
I heard that a recent Timberlane senior with a class rank of 50 out of approx 420 students did not get accepted by UNH. I read that a student needs to be at least in the top 17% to get into UNH.
by the way the
$9000 or so figure in the annuall report is due to a formula they use to calculate the amount spent per student, it removes certain budget items from the number.
I am more concerned with the fact that 52% of Timberlane's students cant perform basic math functions proficiently.
Given that these state tests are not designed to test empirically for knowledge, but designed to allow the greatest number to pass, proficient in the context of these tests does not mean what proficient means in the business world.
to the person complaining about teacher pay, and attributing low achievement to what timberlane teachers get paid, you are being ridiculous. Timberlane teachers on average make $51,454 per year. But remember their year is only 8 months, not 50 weeks like most of us. When you divide the pay by the hours worked in school you get $33.89 per hour. Not bad when you consider that a chemical engineer like myself only makes $30.16 per hour.
From UNH's Admissions page website:
Admission to the University of New Hampshire is competitive. The Admissions Office expects its first-year applicants to complete rigorous coursework with consistent "B" or higher grades during high school in preparation for the demands of college. Most students rank in the top 25 percent of their class.
HOWEVER...
The University of New Hampshire conducts an individualized, holistic review of our applications for admission. This admissions philosophy allows the University of New Hampshire to make appropriate exceptions to any stated policy in place, provided compelling evidence exists to assure the Admissions Office that a student will succeed academically at the University of New Hampshire.
I would imagine that for some readers of this blog, the above statement also indicates a lowering of academic standards.
Incidentally, a 2.8 GPA average is the equivalent to a B/B- average. You can verify here and here.
This means, Timberlane HS requires a B- or better for honor roll and in addition, there are more stringent criteria for honors with distinction. This policy is consistent from what I remember was required when I went to high school in the early 80's. So, in fact, Timberlane DOES NOT allow a C student to make honor roll. This is documented and can be found in the student handbook.
Anonymous said...
I am more concerned with the fact that 52% of Timberlane's students cant perform basic math functions proficiently.
Have you looked at how Timberlane compares to other districts in the state for this examination? I encourage you to visit the NH Dept. of Education website and review the 2007-2008 cumulative mathematics reports.
Here are some schools, in our region, 1 scores (1=subtstantially below proficient):
Portsmouth - 29% - #students = 231
Exeter - 42% - #students = 387
Salem - 39% - #students = 594
Sanborn - 45% - #students = 197
Pelham - 38% - #students =166
For reference, Timberlane had 388 students taking the exam.
We ARE NOT, as some would like you to believe, spending $13K per student. That is very simplistic math that is being applied to determine an overstated figure. It conveniently leaves out of the equation that some of the budget includes non-educational related spending.
In short, Timberlane is in the bottom 20% in the state for $/student spending and, for our region, has one of the largest student bodies. Can you not see a larger picture here?
ok, so the fact that there are other public schools doing worse, means that we should expect no better, and not be critical?
The fact that their formula for expressing expenditures per pupil does not count roughly 30% of their budget, means that we should not consider that 30% when we are paying our taxes, and voting on district expenditures?
No matter what spin you put on it,
Timberlane DOES have a $59,464,070.00 budget for 4,653 kids in the district!
No matter what spin you put on it that is $12,780 per kid!
It doesn't matter that there are schools doing worse, I am ecstatic to find that Timberlane is not rock bottom, that still doesn't mean it is acceptable.
That still doesn't answer the question of why other local schools, can do better with significantly less.
here are some more NECAP scores Grade 11, 2007-2008.
Salem:% proficient
Reading 54%
Math 25%
Writing 22%
Pelham:% proficient
Reading 61%
Math 22%
Writing 43%
Londonderry:% proficient
Reading 59%
Math 32%
Writing 39%
Timberlane:% proficient
Reading 49%
Math 24%
Writing 25%
Please explain the differences
The fact that their formula for expressing expenditures per pupil does not count roughly 30% of their budget, means that we should not consider that 30% when we are paying our taxes, and voting on district expenditures?
Yes, Mark, that is correct. When calculating the $/student, non educational related expenses were deducted to calculate the true/actual value we are spending towards our children's education. It is not spin. Why do you not want to accept this number?
If a mutual fund company was marketing a fund, would YOU prefer if they listed their ROI before or after their fees are calculated?
As I mentioned previously; are we investing enough in our children's education?
Perhaps the more pertinent question you should be asking is this: Of the ~30% non-educational spending in our budget, how much of it is non-essential and can it be reallocated into education?
It doesn't matter that there are schools doing worse, I am ecstatic to find that Timberlane is not rock bottom, that still doesn't mean it is acceptable.
Nor should it be acceptable. However, WE NEED to look at benchmarks and metrics. In my opinion, your "facts" are being presented to us in a vacuum and do not properly represent the entire picture statewide. Timberlane's academic performance needs improvement. However, is it SIGNIFICANTLY lower than the rest of the state? If so, THAT may indicate a larger, more serious, problem. But from what I can see, we are in line with the rest of the state.
Let me be clear, I am not saying this is acceptable. Simply, the "crisis" that is being presented to us and the way in which it is being presented to us, is, in my opinion, not accurate.
in answer to your questions;
1.) I do not accept this because we are paying that extra 30% too. I have been questioning the efficacy of that money as well, but I am looking at how much they spend of our money to achieve a result. I am balancing the result against the expenditure. When I look at pricing a job, I do not just look at my labor costs, but my materials, overhead, maintenance, profit, etc.
2.) I would rather a mutual fund company reveal my ROI INCLUDING their fees, because that is how I am calculating my ROI. How much do I spend in total, and how much do I get in return. What you are describing is like buying something off Ebay, thinking you got a great deal, when you fail to include the shipping cost.
3.) I am speaking of our districts achievement, and the investment to get it. Other district are doing much better for much less, I am asking why? The fact that there are schools doing worse is not a mitigating factor, nor worthy of my consideration. If my business is failing to make money, it is of no comfort that 300 carpet cleaners folded in the last two years, is it?
1.) I do not accept this because we are paying that extra 30% too. I have been questioning the efficacy of that money as well, but I am looking at how much they spend of our money to achieve a result. I am balancing the result against the expenditure. When I look at pricing a job, I do not just look at my labor costs, but my materials, overhead, maintenance, profit, etc.
The above statement speaks volumes!
So YOU do not accept $/student figure stated in the Annual Report and irresponsibly post what YOU determine the "actual" cost to be?
Of course inflating the numbers, does help strengthen YOUR argument that "Government does not belong in our chidrens education process."
Isn't this what this is really about?
Have you been paying attention?
How is it "inflating the numbers" to include the TOTAL COST?
I inflated nothing, but I also did not subtract anything. I took the schools budget/ # of students. Both figures coming from the schools own website.
The school only counts a portion of its budget in determining the amount spent per student, so, in essence they are DEFLATING the numbers.
Tell me if the TRUE cost of education at timberlane is only $9,000 per student, then where does that extra $3,800 go?
You happily ignore the facts regarding the districts lack of academic achievement in your attempts to shoot the messenger, so how is that contributing to the issue of demanding academic excellence from our schools?
I would expect better from someone so well educated.
Mark,
While you have not inflated your figures, you are being too simplistic with your calculations.
The $3,800.00 goes towards non-education related expenses. In addition, you have left out the fact that out of the $59,464,070 total budget, $42,215,674 or 70% of that is funded by local taxes. 30% come from other sources. See page 29 of the 2007 Annual Report.
I will repeat myself: I am not saying Timberlane's academic performance is acceptable. Simply, the "crisis" that is being presented to us and the way in which it is being presented to us, is, in my opinion, not accurate.
just for the record that other 30% is also taxes, just not from the Town of Atkinson, but from state and federal sources.
They still came out of our pockets, therefore Mark is not wrong in his approach.
just for the record that other 30% is also taxes, just not from the Town of Atkinson, but from state and federal sources.
They still came out of our pockets, therefore Mark is not wrong in his approach.
You are not entirely correct. 3.15% is from federal sources, 21.88% is from state sources, and 3.97% is from NON-TAX related sources. Remember our local taxes are generated by property taxes and our contributions from these other state and federal sources would be greatly diluted.
So to review:
1. The $13,000.00/student is, in fact, an overinflated value. This is undeniable.
2. Timberlane does not allow a C+ student to make honor roll. This is undeniable.
3. A student with a 2.1 GPA/C average is in the bottom 1/3 of her class. Does this seem unusual?
I'm surprised that a 2.1 GPA is in the bottom 1/3 of his/her class. It seems like it ought to be about the bottom 50%. Unless there is serious grade inflation a C average should be about the norm, asuming a roughly gaussian grade distribution centered on C or "average". That said, Timberlane and pretty much all ofther schools complicate the calculation (appropriately I might add) by having both CCP and Acc classes. C in a College Prep
Level Course earns 1.8 on the GPA scale. A C+ earns a 2.1. In an
accelerated course, a C- earns 2.2 on the GPA scale and a D+ yields a
1.8.
Remember: this isn't Garrison Keillor's "Lake Woebegone" where "all the women are strong, all the men are good looking, and all the children are above average.". as much as any of parents don't want to believe it, our chidren's grades center on "average"...
Just my opinion and I may be wrong...
Hey Mark try to find out what the results were from the FIRST TIME Timberlane took the NECAP last year!
Thats right, for those of you didn't know, Timberlane did so bad the first time they took the NECAP last year that they retook them a month or two later, to report a better score!
I'm confused. People complain that Timberlane does not hold students accountable or have high expectations. Yet, here we have many posts complaining that students aren't doing well at all. I'm sure that there are plenty of parents who will argue that too many students are on honor roll. Lets face facts people, we'll never be satisfied with any results.
I disagree with the the above Anon statement that we will never be satisfied. It appears we all know that most of the students in our district are not doing well according to the state's standards (NECAPs, etc), but don't we also have to look at what criteria was developed to create the standards? How did they determine "proficient" or "partially proficient" or "significantly below" etc? Does anyone really know?
I agree that our students can and should do better -- that we as parents are not (usually) expecting more from our children then we know they can do. And, as we all know it, you get out of education what one is willing to invest in it. Maybe our students don't realize the investment WE as parents ARE making to the district with taxes, etc. And for most of us, the education we want to believe in and support is causing hardship for most - at least some sort of hardship. We moved to the area 5 years ago and our taxes went from $5,186 to $7,251 and is causing concern. Maybe I'm naive, but I would like to see the children accountable to their education - the teachers accountable to the children in teaching them well - the administration accountable to the parents. Sometimes I feel that the administration wants us to be accountable to THEM! That if and when a warrant article isn't supported by the community, they want us to feel that "we don't care" when actually I am trying to send a message that I support what is really necessary - not just a "want." On that subject of "wanting" has anyone heard the rumor that they have kept the old AD (Tardiff) on staff for the 30 hours per week at $20/hr because the principal wants a new Field House? And it is felt that since the old AD has such ties to families that it's his job to get the support behind this?????
Anyway, I guess I'm tired of throwing money away and I think that we will be pleased if we see good firm growth in the future scores of our children. If it continues to slide and/or we don't get out of "need of improvement," than we HAVE to start saying "no" and sending the message that enough is enough. Look at the new Sanborn HS -- a better newer building has NOT made for better scores......
A few quick comments.
Mark,
as your child gets older they might have the opportunity to particitpate in a sword fight during World Studies. (the you tube video was on the internet). watch movies such as V is for Vendetta, and the Last Samari (see speakoutdanvile.org. The next year during American Studies they can have a guitar hero contest (see speakoutdanville.org).
I've talked to a few graduates from this years class who did not get accepted at UNH. UNH is no longer a safety school for NH students as it was in the past.
The 2.1 GPA that many students have is that in CCP classes or ACC? I'd feel more comfortable if it was ACC classes. On multiple occassions when at the school, teachers have told me CCP classes are basically babysitting classes. There are many behaviour issues and the kids are not challenged.
Another problem is that without grade requirements to get into an accelerated class, my kids have CCP students in there bringing down the education level of those classes.
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