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Tuesday, June 22, 2010

Do we need a new $70,000,000 middle school and high school?

MAcciard said...

ARTICLE SUBMISSION PLEASE

Do we need a new $70,000,000 middle school and high school?

For those who were unaware, the school board had a "workshop" last night to discuss the proposed new schools building project.

The presentation was made by the architect, with the school board members asking clarification type questions. No one on that board bothered to ask if this was NEEDED, that was simply accepted. At one point Mr. LaSalle stated that if you look around the southern tier(of NH) you have beautiful new schools, we have waited our turn.

I held my tongue, but the comment running through my head was; "YOUR TURN??? There are 15,000 taxpayers in this district who are struggling to pay the $14,500/yr. to send each one of their kids here to get their mediocre education NOW, how about improving the quality of your product before demanding a palace in which to work."

The architect stated that a ball park estimate for school construction runs about $180/sq.ft. So here are the number from last nights meeting...

Middle school currently has 1050 kids in 135,000 sq.ft. of space. New middle school is designed for 1100 kids in 200,000 sq ft. of space. A 50% increase in the size of the school for the same population.

High school currently has roughly 1,380 kids in 142,000 sq.ft. of space. New high school will be designed for 1,400 kids in 230,000 sq.ft. of space. A 62% increase in space for the same population.

Here is the math, although bear in mind that they have not budgeted any of this yet, so there are no "hard numbers" at this point.

200,000sq.ft. x $180/ft. = $36,000,000. + additional site work, planning, feasibility studies, and overruns. That is the middle school.

230,000sq.ft. x $180/ft.= $41,400,000 + additional site work, planning, feasibility studies, and overruns. That is the middle school.

Now here is where this gets interesting; Wasn't the bond for the last construction project that brought us the PAC center $32,000,000? So they are planning to HAVE THREE BONDS RUNNING CONCURRENTLY???

Is it too much to ask to improve the quality of education BEFORE asking us to build the King a new palace?

37 comments:

Anonymous said...

No, it's ridiculous, but until people stop it, we're going to end up with it.

These guys have no shame presenting this to the taxpayers.

MAcciard said...

By the way, We are still paying for the PAC center at $1,600,000/yr. for principal, and approx. $700,000/yr. interest. on a 20 yr. bond. And that bond was taken out over 10 years ago.

a $44,000,000 bond taken out for the Middle school part of the project would cost us $2,200,000/yr. in principal over 20 years, plus interest of approx. $1,153,000/yr.

Then we would have to add the high school portion to that!

Is anyone feeling a pinch yet?

The school board just reluctantly passed a 180 day calendar! This means that your kids will have to be taught 180 days per yr.!

Did anyone know that?

Anonymous said...

I think that there would be a mass exodus from Atkinson if this school proposal goes through!!! Alot of retired people would have a tough time paying higher taxes. Enough is enough!!!!

Anonymous said...

I'm surpised nobody blamed the chief yet...walka walka walka...I kid...but seriously...if they even consider something like this shouldn't grant money be sought or any other option to lessen the blow to the taxpayers?

Also, I'm confused by the rage. The voters had the chance to vote "NO" on the school operating budgets and the teacher's contracts, but all those things passed. You give an inch they'll take a mile.

Anonymous said...

Worried about a new HS and MS. Check this video out. http://vimeo.com/12766774

I believe TRSD priorities are a little mixed up!

Anonymous said...

The only thing that is mixed-up is Mark's numbers. When he states "There are 15,000 taxpayers in this district who are struggling to pay the $14,500/yr. to send each one of their kids here to get their mediocre education NOW...", he is being disingenuous.

Mark likes to use a simple formula to tell you how much taxpayers are spending per child. The formula is the total budget/student population. What he conveniently leaves out is the fact that 70% of the budget is derived from local taxes. The remaining 30% is comprised of state, federal, and other sources.

Since this blog focuses on Atkinson, perhaps the number to consider is the tax assessment %/town. Atkinson is responsible for ~23% of the local operating budget. We also have 1,072 children enrolled in the school. Therefore, if you divide our tax assessment by the number of kids we send to school in Timberlane, the amount is ~$11,100.00/child. This is about $3,500.00 less than Mark's figures, which are simplistic and inflated for maximum effect. Mark, what's your agenda here?

Additionally, when Mark states we spend $14,500/child for a mediocre education, he refuses to acknowledge that the figure he presents here consists of educational and non-educational expenses (i.e. building maintenance, etc.) For actual education expenses:

"District Average: State Average cost per pupil - $11,135.10, Timberlane - $10,573.07. Out of 162 school districts 36 spend less than we do per pupil and 125 spend more." 2008 Timberlane Annual Report

But this is a different debate entirely.

Anonymous said...

Expenses are overhead, part of the cost of educating a child and included in what the taxpayers pay.

Indirect or direct, we're paying this amount so how can you say Mark has an agenda? Give me a break.

MAcciard said...

Wow! You sound like Mr. LaSalle at the deliberative session earlier this year, and even he admitted that the total budget(read that as the total amount funded by taxpayers) for the school district is $14,500/child. To leave out buildings, facilities maintenance, groundskeeping, and other ancillary services in order to come up with a more politically palatable number just because the state allows it is disengenuous.

Further, the problem is not the cost, strictly speaking, it is what we get for the cost! If we were paying this amount, and getting a Central Catholic, Pinkerton, Phillips level of Education, no one would complain, but to have to pay this, and still have to look for more money in your household budget to send your kids to a school where the Middle School principal's philosophy is NOT to pass along kids with straight "F"'s because "they will catch it up in high school", is adding insult to injury.

And dissecting the current operating budget does not begin to address what your tax bill will look like with THREE $40,000,000. or so bonds RUNNING CONCURRENTLY! This will add over $8,000,000.00 to the schools budget EVERY YEAR for the next 20 years!

MAcciard said...

Also 1 other item to consider; If this project goes through we will gain 150,000 sq.ft. between the two schools. Won't this also require more new furniture, lockers, bookcases, media equipment, books, desks, etc. to fill that space?

Anonymous said...

Let's not forget that the Performing Arts Center will no longer be part of the high school musician's experience. That used to be important.

Anonymous said...

The PAC is no longer Timberlane's pride and joy?! Must be getting TOO OLD.

Anonymous said...

They'll want a new PAC next.

Anonymous said...

Retired people from Atkinson can pay the higher taxes then just ask to have their utility bills paid for by the Town. They don't have a thing to worry about as long as big daddy is in the house (if you're on his list).

Anonymous said...

I just watched the video, and all I heard is how the teachers need space. to work, to meet, to grade papers, to discuss special ed.

All I heard about the kids is the usual fluff about better light, air, layout.

Is this for the teachers or the kids? and is it necessary?

Len Mullen said...

What is going on here? Since attending the work session, I have emailed a significant number of TRSD employees (predominently teachers). There is very little awareness of this initiative inside the school's walls. One of my points was that the PAC would not be part of the HS curriculum. 100% of responses to that were negative.

I guess the plan was to have an unattended work session before summer vacation where La Salle would ask the school board to find $1.2mm for engineering and permitting then ask the district to pony up 50% of the cost of the new school next spring.

I was surprised that La Salle challenged the board to find the money to fund this in the 2010 - 2011 budget -- "there is money if building a new school is the priority" -- after his doomsday forecast at the deliberative session (click my name).

I encourage all to demand that their school board members to use 'found money' to fix the SINI school in Plaistow before building a front yard and living room for each middle schooler.

Anonymous said...

Look, the numbers on the actual education costs speak for themselves and can be found in the 2008 Annual Report on the TRSD website. The fact is Timberlane IS in the bottom 3rd of the state when it comes to cost per pupil spent on education related costs.

(http://www.education.nh.gov/data/financial.htm)

This is a comprehensive report put together by the state of NH using identical criteria for every school district. Mark and others would have you believe "their" numbers are correct and refuse to acknowledge the fact that the formula he applies is too simplistic. Click on the link and draw your own conclusions.

Now, the more appropriate debate should be how can we reallocate some of the overhead costs into the student's education. This is a worthwhile investment in the future. But blindly criticizing a lump sum, and inaccurate number, gets us nowhere. However, I suspect Mark knows that already.

Anonymous said...

Yeah. We also need a much expanded town hall to collect more of our taxes plus showers at the PD and more and more money coming in all the time. Yeah. And we need a new auditorium for Elderly affairs political programs. Right on!

Mark, really you don't get it.

Anonymous said...

"Now, the more appropriate debate should be how can we reallocate some of the overhead costs into the student's education. "

The taxpayers don't get to DO that. (Mark probably knows this.)

MAcciard said...

To Anon @ 9:52;

You steadfastly refuse to understand my point.

I acknowledge that the State has a formula that omits some of the costs that our taxes pay for.

That is not the point.

We ARE paying the school $14,500/kid that goes there. We have no say in how they allocate that money seeing as the SB Budcom, refuses to do their job and merely nods obediently at the budget put forth by Mr. LaSalle.

Therefore it really doesnt matter if $9,000 is spent on education, or $12,000 is spent ed. We are STILL PAYING $14,500.

GET IT?

You may think about addressing what we actually get for that money?

Anonymous said...

Timberlane is in the bottom third of the state regarding cost per pupil?

I guess you forgot to share that as you shared your various facts Mark? Is it true?

Also, we need to seperate the teacher bashing from the issue of a new high school. The constant bashing of educators just makes this blog seem like an asylum for tea-bagging crazies. A teacher's job is not very easy folks; if you know a teacher, talk to them about how teaching is today. It's not enough to actually try to instruct a group of kids that don't have 1/4th of the respect that kids used to have for teachers; they also have to be social workers and parents nowadays...

Len Mullen said...

Anon, the TEA Party movement is about taxes. TEA stands for Taxed Enough Already. If you don't feel that way, it is you that is crazy. The vulgar term you used was added by people much more familiar with the act.

I don't think there has been much teacher bashing. I don't think informing the public that there is a pedophile or rapist on campus is bashing. There really hasn't been much complaining about what goes on in the classroom when the teachers and students are there. And what concerns have been raised have been very fair -- noting the nonacademic academics (movies, tv shows, Red Sox games, lightsaber duels, etc.)

The only ones tying quality of teaching to a new school is La Salle. And he's not doing it well. La Salle noted that the middle school was NH's middle school of the year and predicted no performance benefit to moving to a new building.

Most of the bashing is directed towards the administration -- with their delayed openings, early dismissals, block scheduling, and lack of leveling, the school board and superintendent have offended the common sense of most and the perpetual state of SINI says the community is right.

The superintendent, on the other hand, has blamed all of this on the unmotivated students, unsupportive parents, and uninspiring buildings (click my name).

People like you have attacked people like Mark who are trying to motivate the public to elect a school board and budget committee that will serve the community. Thanks...from all of us. You probably do not have kids in these schools.

Mark is not posting unanimously. He uses his name here and when he stands before the administration. His actions and motives are plain to see. The school board, on the other hand, has sealed meeting minutes for 99 years and held untelevised work sessions on unusual days at unusual times to hide from the public's eye. Of course, you probably are OK with that since you choose to post anonymously.

Anonymous said...

Len,

Glad to see you are a proud member of the TEA Party movement. That would explain some of your loathing towards public education. Remember folks, the tax argument is a smokescreen for a much larger agenda here.

Found this previous discussion questioning Mark and Len's numbers:

http://timberlaneschools.forumsland.com/timberlaneschools-post-1250.html&highlight=

Interesting...

MAcciard said...

To Anon @ 6:01 and 7:15;

The numbers are accurate. The "bottom third" number that the district likes to tout is using a state education funding model that allows them to not include money spent on facilities, maintenance, and other items, usually exempting up to a third of the districts budget. That doesn't relieve you of having to pay for those items.

I feel it is more honest to include EVERYTHING the district makes us pay. By LaSalle's own admission this is $14,500/kid.

Now here is my question for you? Who is bashing teachers?

All the comments I see are about the administration.

Why is asking budgetary questions, wrong?

Questions that they were unable to answer I might add.

Why is exposing the boards illegal meetings, illegal sealing of minutes, allowing someone under indictment for child pornography to continue to interact with our kids for 14 months, wrong?

Why is attempting to make those people we elect to work on our behalf accountable to us wrong?

Is it wrong to expect the budget committee to do their job and write the budget?

Is it wrong to expect the school board to do their job and remember that the superintendent and staff work for them not the other way around?

Is it wrong to demand a better quality education from our school board, when that is precisely their responsibility?

Is it wrong to ask why I have to pay $14,500 to send my kid to Timberlane, while I can pay tuition of $9,000 at either Central Catholic or Pinkerton, and get a first class education?

BTW, Pinkerton was built in 1803, much like the Atkinson Academy, and it is still in use!

MAcciard said...

I went to the SB budcom meeting last night. I went to ask one question;

Mr. LaSalle asked the SB to approve $1,200,000.00 for engineering studies in the 2010/2011 budget, has the budget committee been apprised of this, looked into it, and where is the money coming from? When Mr. LaSalle said at deliberative session that they needed every dollar in that budget, and listed 39 items that would have to be cut to level fund the budget.

Len Mullen said...

Believe it or not, it is possible to understand and tolerate positions and organizations that one does not belong to.

I'm not a member of the TEA Party movement. Neither am I a Democrat nor a Republican. I have no interest in government or politics.

I have never run for any office and have no plans to ever run for any office.

I'm just a parent trying to get a decent education for my kids.

I do not loathe anything.

I moved to Danville in 1990 to raise a family. I bought a house on a cul de sac with a nice yard where my kids could play safely. I chose Danville in large part because it was in the TRSD. When I was in school, Timberlane had an excellent reputation.

I had no idea how far the district had fallen in ten years.

When my oldest was a toddler, I attended my first district meeting. The three of us came to watch, learn, and participate. I was shocked to hear people oppose the new construction plan. I was surprised at the animosity between proponents and opponents.

Now I've had two kids go through the school system. I have seen first hand what a Timberlane education looks like. I have met many teachers and administrators. I have watched hundreds of school board meetings and I have participated in dozens of budget committee meetings.

I do not believe educating our children is important to these people. I do not trust them to manage the schools.

They have earned that. They earned that by going into nonpublic session to protect the reputation of an individual nearly every school board meeting. They earned that by sealing the minutes to one such session for 99 years. They earned that by filling the PAC with resident employees of the district for the last deliberative session. They earned that by busing kids to the polls to vote for a school issue. They earned that by using public resources for political purposes. They earned that by convening on an unusual day of the week at an unusual time of the day to agree that La Salle could spend $1.2mm of next year's budget on engineering and permitting of two new schools. (I have no doubt they would have done that had Mark and I not attended.)

I don't know what your stake in the success of our schools is, but kids that do not get a good education do not get good jobs. Adults that do not have good jobs cannot afford high taxes. Towns without a tax base cannot afford expensive schools.

I said I moved to Danville because of the Timberlane schools. In 1989 there were no blogs or forums or online newspapers. There were no standards based comparisons of schools. If I were looking for a home today, I would not choose one in a town with high taxes and poor schools. Apparently, neither would anyone else. Since before I was born, TRSD has had to expand every seven years to support a growing community. Today there is no growth and projections call for a contraction of school age kids.

It's going to take a lot of time to restore the reputation of our schools and the vitality of the community that comes with it. The first step to a solution is admitting you have a problem.

MAcciard said...

I grew up in Atkinson. I went to first grade at the Rockwell School(now the police station, ironically enough), I went to elementary school at the Academy, I did double sessions at the HS while the Then Junior High was being built, My class was the first to graduate from TRJHS. Then I graduated from TRHS. It was a great school! I got a great education.

My brother and sister went through the schools after me and got Great educations.

I got out of the USAF and moved back to Atkinson when my Mom passed away in 1999. Atkinson remained my home of record continuously during my military service.

I have put 4 kids through the district schools. My experience has been that the Atkinson Academy, particularly under Kathy Dayotis' leadership has been outstanding! Heidi Webster wasn't bad either, but no Mrs. Dayotis! Barbara Witherspoon was abysmal!

The Middle school has been an educational wasteland for at least 8 years that I can attest to. Most of you, have heard my story about Middle school prinicpal Mike Hogan telling me that a student with straight "F"'s should not be held back because "they will catch it up in high school", that pretty well sums up the MS. The high school has largely suffered from poor management, low expectations, a permissive attitude, and weak curriculum, the SAU and the school board has refused to address these problems.

Ad to these issues a budget committee that has failed miserably to do their job. Shenanigans like; illegal public hearings, illegal non-public meetings, illegal sealing of meeting minutes, Mr. LaSalle putting raises for himself and 55 administrators into THE DEFAULT BUDGET AS WELL AS THE OPERATING BUDGET, AND THE BUDGET COMMITTEE DID NOT EVEN KNOW THIS, OR THAT IT WAS ILLEGAL!

The problem here is not the teachers, even those like the thin skinned Mr. Dube, who eloquence at deliberative session could leave little doubt about his maturity. The problem is the administration, that costs us millions of dollars per year, while telling us at deliberative session that they do not have to explain the SAU budget.

The difference between this behavior from the SAU and having it from a private school, is that from a private school you don't have to tolerate it. From the SAU you are paying for it whether you like it or not.

Anonymous said...

"The numbers are accurate. The "bottom third" number that the district likes to tout is using a state education funding model that allows them to not include money spent on facilities, maintenance, and other items, usually exempting up to a third of the districts budget. That doesn't relieve you of having to pay for those items.

I feel it is more honest to include EVERYTHING the district makes us pay. By LaSalle's own admission this is $14,500/kid."

Mark,

I disagree. This is not about what YOU feel, but I am glad you put this down in writing. Basically, you are saying you do not care what formula the state uses to calculate these figures, it how YOU calculate the figures is what counts. How convenient for you to bundle in all of the non-educational related figures into the equation you want and then criticize the quality of the education after you have inflated the numbers.

I'll post the link again for everyone to see what the state has reported:

(http://www.education.nh.gov/data/financial.htm)

The numbers do not lie.

You HAVE to filter out the non-educational related costs to get a true cost-per-pupil. It is the only way to get a true comparison from district to district across the state.

Len Mullen in the Danville Delivery states: "I would outsource curriculum development and oversight to a school that does it well — Exeter comes to mind." (http://danvilledelivery.com/2010/02/06/the-right-number/). Have you looked at what Exeter spends per child on educational related expenses compared to Timberlane? About $2,600.00 more per child!

Len Mullen said...

I think, anon, I would spend my time moving noneducational expenditures into educational expenditures.

Personally, I do not think this is about money. La Salle said the middle school was New Hampshire's middle school of the year last year. Assuming this selection is based on merit, the school has progressed a LOT in three years. The building has not changed. The budget has not changed. The personnel did not change. What happened? They applied a new teaching strategy.

That's a management change. That's what is needed at Pollard and that's what's needed at the high school. Shut the TVs off and pick up pencils. Forget about Paris, Montreal, and Orlando -- crack the books. No more light sabers, Donald Trump, and Red Sox games. Keep the kids and teachers in the classroom long enogh to learn something.

I wish you would identify yourself. Moderator can you check to see if these posts are coming from the school's network?

Len Mullen said...

Exeter...my oldest took his SATs there a couple weeks ago. He raved about the new High School. I asked what he thought of their performing arts center. He thought for a minute and said he didn't think they had one. So, there is $6mm in noneducational expenditures we will be making payments on for the next 20 years. I was told that this PAC was the centerpiece of a modern education. Now the same people are telling us that it's not a big deal that HS students will not use the PAC. NOW, front lawns, living rooms, and pods are what the SAU needs to teach the kids.

Anonymous said...

Len,

So this now no longer about the money? Are you joking? And you then follow-up your next post with a complaint about the cost of the PAC.

I agree that shifting non-educational related costs to educational related costs is a good idea, and something I suggested in an earlier post. What would be more interesting is to compare Timberlane's overhead to the rest of the state.

Now, as for whether I am affiliated with the school district in any capacity; other than being a parent of a child in the Timberlane school system, I am not. I hold a private sector job. However, I think your are on a slippery slope if you request the moderator to identify the source of these posts. I've not disparaged anyone and only presented counterpoints. And I'm assuming they must be valid since you would like to know who I am now. Does it weaken the facts in your mind if you can prove I am a teacher or an administrator? If the argument is sound, why should it matter?

Len Mullen said...

Listen, Anon, I voted for the PAC. I have voted for most school spending. I have said many times that I do not have a beef with the tax rate in Danville. My beef is with what we get back for it. At this point in time, I am willing to vote against all spending until the teachers and administrators embrace MY priorities -- teaching the kids the right things well 180 days a year.

I don't care if the mod outs you. I just do not believe you have kids in our schools. If you did, you would be as upset as I am.

When I allowed comments on DanvilleDelivery, I ran metrics on the visits and researched the IP addresses of posters. If I attended a meeting, I got a lot of traffic from Massachusetts and the school. It turned out that a lot of the parents who supported the SAU posted from Massachusetts and the school.

It's not against the law to pretend to be a parent who thinks SINI schools are AWESOME, but it's a tad unethical -- don't you think?

I know there are parents in the district who think the schools are great. I sit with most of them when the budget committee meets. Maybe you are one of them?

As to whether it is a slippery slope, it's not. If you are naive enough to think there is such a thing as anonymity, you deserve to be outed. I do forensics for a living. Ain't no such thing.

Between you and me, I cannot get my head around SINI teachers and administrators. I go to work every day and do my very best. I don't get paid extra to do that, but I feel good when I pull into my driveway at 7:00 each night.

If I were a teacher or administrator in a SINI school, I'd find another way to pay the bills. How much fun can it be going through life as a failure?

Really, though, you have a right to your opinions. I just think they would have more value if you signed your name. No one with your opinions has ever had their home or car vandalized. Step up.

MAcciard said...

To anon @ 3;22;

I am going to try this again; Do you know what is excluded from the budget in the states funding formula?

So are you telling me that we dont need to pay that other $4,000?

My point wasnt my numbers against the states, they are the same numbers, the school puts the $10,000 number up there and tells you that they are in the bottom third of schools in the state. Ok, that was never my point.

My point was that we have a declining school population, exploding school costs, higher taxes to pay for it, and a declining quality of education. Are you seriously telling me that this situation is acceptable?

Are you telling that you feel that the $14,500/kid that we pay in taxes is a bargain for the quality of education we receive?

MAcciard said...

Maybe this is a better question; Why can I pay Pinkerton $9,000 in tuition this year to send my kid there, and she will receive an excellent education, or Central Catholic for the same amount, yet it costs me $14,500 to send my kid to TRHS, where she will close out the last 10 days of school watching movies like Napoleon Dynamite, or where she will learn how a bill becomes a law, IN HIGH SCHOOL by watching Legally Blonde 2?

Anonymous said...

Mark,

Why do you point only to Pinkerton's tuition and not to Derry Coopertative's total cost-per-pupil? Especially given the fact that your inflated $14,500.00 number is all of TRSD combined?

MAcciard said...

Because I only have knowledge of pinkertons tuition, and it doesnt really matter because I am comparing high school education to high school education, and Timberlanes was pro rated on a per student basis. If you take the budget and divide out the high school's pro- rata share it is $20,300,000. using the $14,500 gross budget, and 1,400 students in the high school.

How about comparing administrations:
Here is a local comparison for you; I would like to hear any comments you may have.

Timberlane:

4361 Students enrolled district wide
1407 High School
36 Administrators district wide
121:1 Student to Admin Ratio- Dist.
12 Administrators High School
117 Student to Admin Ratio- HS
6 Psychologists on staff- District
727:1 Student to Psych. Ratio

(does not include SAU)

Pinkerton:

3446 Students enrolled High School
7 Administrators
492 Student to Admin Ratio
1 Psychologist on Staff
3446:1 Student to Psch. ratio


Perhaps stats like these have something to do with the difference in costs between the two schools?

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